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OLDFOGEY

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Am I a Good German?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:04 AM EDT
world-news, germany, journalism, publishing, country, patriotism
By oldfogey
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The following is really just a comment. A comment I made in reply to another Newsviner on a thread about the "Good Germans". My comment became so complicated and personally important that I presumed to publish to the entire world. Maybe someday someone will look back, read what I had to say and then mutter, "He was one of the Good Germans".

I think some of the extremes you describe happening in Germany (and many things that happened there that were certainly even more extreme) simply do not exist here in America today.

Tom do you deny that today Americans are being asked to carry and present documents to authorities that were not required a few years ago or that government has recently decided to make people have passports not required previously or that you cannot travel by air any where without more paperwork and interference by government than ever before?
Do you deny that our welfare system AND our tax system reward us for having babies? Do you deny that we are torturing captives? Do you deny that we are killing innocents? If you do, you are suffering from "being in denial". These are all things that the WWII movies, which were an education to many of that era, contained as examples of how the hated, devilish enemy was operating. So unAmerican.

Furthermore, can you imagine if you and I were Germans trying to conduct this kind of conversation in the 1930s or 1940s in Germany? How long would it be before we were being trucked off to a camp somewhere?

You are right! We are not being trucked off to concentration camps. Yet! We are building prisons as quickly as possible and doing it in stealth to a great degree. The prisons are being built by the RMKs and Halliburtons and will be manned by them as well along with the probable help of Blackwater lookalikes. The Warsaw Ghetto wasn't a concentration camp but it worked just like one. We have those now in every major population area. They are not just racial, they are socio-economic as well. They tend to contain the less well educated. Their confinement is aided and abetted by government programs that assure they are kept below the rabble rousing or revolutionary stages of such populaces and sedated with the assistance of our war on drugs. Check it out.

Hitler, Goebbels, Goehring, et al had great control over the media and the flow of information and any dissent was immediately and brutally crushed. The nation of Germany was under virtual martial law.

Oh, and bush and rove and all the rest have not interfered with the press. No, in fact they have tried to help the press by paying reporters to place the "right" information into stories, their ability to affect the operation of publishing firms has allowed them to show dissident news elements the danger of their ways. And since the major news organizations tend to be owned and operated within the same macromegalithical monster monopolies that have holdings in the defense systems of our country, they have to be telling us the truth and setting us right. Right? We are not under martial law, we are under no law. bush has said his word is final. his word is law. the attorney general stood right behind him on this. So do a dwindling number of Americans who have lost their way. It has not been necessary to declare martial law, Americans are still in shock or denial. Americans are still thinking this government will pull some ultimate truth, some ultimate solution, some ultimate victory from beneath its sleeve. We are being picked clean and not raising more than an internet fuss. We are too busy watching the entertainment side of the above mentioned news-defense-publishing empires' feast for the masses.

It must be acknowledged by all that whenever someone brings up Nazism, Hitler, and other German parallels to what is happening in America today, it's going to significantly ratchet up the level of vitriol and intensity in any conversation, which will drive us further apart, not draw us closer to any common understanding.

The only thing that needs to be acknowledged by all is that we have a problem in the US. That problem is caused by elements within this country that hold profit, personal gain, familial or tribal association, political party or religious orientation and other such human artifacts above the needs of their country. They would desert all we have come to know as the soul and spirit of our country in favor of any environment that would support their need for greed. Instead of arguing left and right we need to be moving forward not back. I have a great fear for our country. Do you?

Tom, I do not impugn your integrity nor your allegiance to your country. I do not link you to the "good germans" anymore than I link myself to them even though I am riddled with guilt for not having spoken out earlier and more loudly. I do beseech you and others who feel as you do to come up with a solution to the mess we are currently in. It is a mess. We can deny it if we want but that won't make it go away. Forgive me but I feel so strongly about what I have said here that I am compelled to make this comment into an article for publication to Newsvine and the world. Your comment, from which I took the quotes, is both rational, respectful and completely proper for publication anywhere you so desire. I just feel you could be doing more for the situation by providing answers rather than explanation. My answer is clear. We must get rid of the present administration as soon as possible. Through every legal means available. And then we must heal and renew ourselves. Thanks for being here, Tom Bombadil.

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oldfogey

I guess I wound up linking myself to the Good Germans. That does not relieve me of my obligation to treat others as I would be treated. There is no way we should be denying or decrying others right to a viewpoint that differs from our own. There are Good Americans who have yet to see things the way I do. Thankfully, there are more of them today than when I started over 8 years ago to talk about such things. Recently I have discovered that much of what is bothering me now was occuring long before the bu@!$%#es of today arrived. The Clinton administration was rife with much of the same drive for some Ivory Tower America that was to be only for the elite. Hell, it may go back to the very beginnings of this country. Suffice it to say, vigilance is the price of Freedom. If we don't maintain our freedoms, no one, including government left unchecked, will do it for us.

  • 10 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:09 AM EDT
Gideon Polya

Excellent article, old fogey. You are representative of the decent, rational, humanitarian, universalist America that the world still loves.

In 1945 the Good Germans said that "they didn't know" about the Holocaust but then followed a post-Holocaust protocol summarized by the acronym CAAAA (C4A) for Cessation of the killing, Acknowledegement of the crimes, Apology, Amends and Assertion "never again to anyone".

If Americans read Newsvine (rather than the lying, racist, holocaust-ignoring, Bush-ite Mainstream media) they at least would KNOW something of the CARNAGE of the 8 million excess deaths in the Bush I and Bush II Asian Holocaust, the Bush Wars (see: "United State Terrorism. 8 million deaths & media holocaust denial": link ).

Then, apprised, they could contemplate the FIRST STEP back to Decency, the C (cessation) of CAAAA (C4A). It can be estimated that the Indigenous Asian excess deaths in post-1950 US Asian wars now total 22 million.

No wonder outstanding Hungarian Jewish American investor, philanthropist, humanitarian activist, author, Holocaust survivor and Holocaust hero George Soros has called for the "de-Nazification" of Bush America (see "George Soros - Bush America needs de-Nazification": link ) and has been sharply critical of the damaging effect of the Zionist Lobby on American foreign policy (see "On Israel, America and AIPAC": link ).

Americans need to stand up against the corrupt Racist Bush-ites (RBs) and traitorous Racist Zionists (RZs, who have prime allegiance to a grossly human rights abusing foreign nuclear terrorist state, Apartheid Israel), both of which are trashing America's wealth, institutions, public life, free speech and international reputation.

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:17 PM EDT
oldfogey

Gideon Polya, I am honored to have your comment. I admire your past work and respect your ability to see beyond the common and the granted to that which is so very true and real but hidden by the machinations of those who would confuse.

In your referral to the Zionists. I think I understand what you mean and where you are coming from but I must advise you that some people are really put off by anyone being against Zionism. And I don't believe it is for the reasons you might think. I don't know how I feel or think about Zionists. In my mind Zionists are those who think Israel is above and beyond all other human communities. Zionists are those who believe Israel should be granted privileges and honors far above that of any other country or people. (Remember, all of this is the way I think about it.) BUT, I also know that many people think of Zionism as a kind of patriotism or love of country or political party dedicated to the betterment of Israel. I have no problem with either of these groups but as you can well imagine I would not endorse nor promote the views of the former. The latter are among my friends and, indeed, I have a converted Jew brother whom I love dearly. So....I guess I am trying to say I would not want to be considered an anti Zionist except in the strict sense of being against any system that believes they are above all others and apart from humanity. Thanks for listening.

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:45 PM EDT
Gideon Polya

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments old fogey. Some of my best friends, too, are Zionists - but they are NOT Racist Zionists (RZs).

I fervently wish for Peace without racism, peace with equity, justice and reconciliation in the Holy Land (e.g. see "Holy Land Peace Plan" : link ).

That will only happen if (a) America INSISTS (which it won't due to the traitorous Racist Zionist Lobby so damaging to US and global interests) or (b) if the decent anti-racist Jewish and Arab Israelis VOTE OUT the die-hard, intransigent Racist Zionists (RZs) running Apartheid Israel.

Unfortunately the latter possibility (b) mirrors the domestic American conundrum - a majority of decent Americans in a democracy who are nevertheless dominated by corrupt, irrational, lying, racist, warmongering, human rights-abusing neo-con cliques.

  • 6 votes
#1.3 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:06 PM EDT
Reply
Djehuty

The world, not just the US, needs people to be passionate like this Oldfogey. Good!!

  • 13 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:29 AM EDT
oldfogey

Djehuty, I noticed your compassionate comments elsewhere this morning. It is good to be good to old guys. Blessed be the tie that binds.

  • 10 votes
Reply#3 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:37 AM EDT
Raat ki Raani

Totally agree with Djehuty - the world needs more like you Oldfogey. Patriotism, or protection of deeply held roots, should never become so overpowering that it shields one from seeing what is otherwise blatantly obvious. And wrong. Thanks for writing.

  • 9 votes
#3.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:53 AM EDT
Djehuty

Thank you my friend.

  • 8 votes
#3.2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:01 AM EDT
oldfogey

Raat ki Raani, enough of us, together, in concert, can right most wrongs. Thanks for being here, Friend.

  • 7 votes
#3.3 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:05 AM EDT
Reply
cartooncat

Good article.

Though as someone living in Germany, I find it sad that a dark and evil part of German history which this nation has been at pains to make amends for over the last 60 years is still what people associate with being "German".

If anyone thinks it's all concentration camps and goosestepping over here...I cordially invite you to come over and take a look. Honestly - there's a lot to being German - but it's absolutely not that!

  • 17 votes
Reply#4 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:07 AM EDT
Djehuty

In sipte of appearances just here - that is really not the case. But in this context the idea is pertinent, you understand I hope? I would hate for Tasmania (where I live) to be remembered for the genocide of its aboriginal inhabitants and yet I've used it myself as an example of how not to behave.

  • 8 votes
#4.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:19 AM EDT
Yuriy Bilokonsky

Worry not, Djehuty. Peoples can only be known for one thing and yours are not known for genocide, but for your devils.

  • 7 votes
#4.2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:09 AM EDT
greer

cartooncat, some of us have very possitve associations with Germans, like Oktoberfest! (In fact, when I saw the title for this article in the "Newsvine Columnists" box, that's what I assumed the article was about). I just celebrated Oktoberfest on Friday actually, and I'm lucky enough to have easy access to one of the largest Oktoberfest celebrations outside of Germany.

  • 3 votes
#4.3 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:40 PM EDT
Reply
oldfogey

cartooncat, I was not belittling the German people or German history in any way. Rather I feel I am trying to convince Americans the Germans were and are only human as well. Peoples often lose their ability to discern truth and good when their own government tries to lead them astray. All the German people, even the dissenters, can be proud of those who are being bantered about as "Good Germans" I identify with them. I wish we all would.

  • 9 votes
Reply#5 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:24 AM EDT
Eric Near

Great article. I am confident that I can always come here for great opinions.

If there's so much discontent in America, why are we just posting to message boards and not burning down the White House?

That might be a little extreme. I am inspired, though, by things like the Civil Rights movement (footage of which has been played a lot lately) and the Tennessee Tax Revolt.

  • 4 votes
Reply#6 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:25 AM EDT
oldfogey

Eric Near, thanks and thanks for being here. We don't need to burn down the White House, just fumigate it.

  • 6 votes
#6.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:08 AM EDT
Reply
Ryan Stolte-Sawa

Hear, hear! What a great way to wake up in the morning--Jerry, you're always a well-spoken guy, but you've outdone yourself here.

ultimate solution

Nice touch.

  • 10 votes
Reply#7 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:43 AM EDT
oldfogey

Ryan, have I told you lately that I love you?

  • 7 votes
#7.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:06 AM EDT
Ryan Stolte-Sawa

Yes, but I figured you were just "being nice." :)

  • 7 votes
#7.2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:16 AM EDT
Reply
Laughman

why are we just posting to message boards and not burning down the White House?

Careful! You never know who might be reading this. (And I'm only half joking)

Great article, Oldfogey.

  • 6 votes
Reply#8 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:46 AM EDT
oldfogey

You can bet your bottom dollar "they" are listening. What is the other half of the joke? ROFL

  • 4 votes
#8.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:10 AM EDT
Reply
Babel Fish

I thought World War II was over, the Germans have been re-educated and are now respected even by Israel. I am sure there are many more bad Americans than bad Germans these days. There has to be as USA has a much higher population than Germany.

This is of course linked to the many declaration of USA being a fascist state. Why keep on dragging the Germans into an argument about Americanism the perfected form of fascism. Americanism is the dirty word we should be using, fascism is the wrong word and the Germans have nothing to do with it.

  • 5 votes
Reply#9 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:50 AM EDT
Yuriy Bilokonsky

Your anti-Americanism is uplifting.

  • 8 votes
#9.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:00 AM EDT
cartooncat

Hurrah for Babelfish!

  • 5 votes
#9.2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:11 AM EDT
oldfogey

Babel Fish, I accept your point but remind you we use words to convey meanings that otherwise would go unsent. In that way my talking about some of my ancestoral Germans is not so far out.

  • 5 votes
#9.3 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:13 AM EDT
Babel Fish

I have such ancestry unfortunately most ended up in the gas ovens, however I do not hold any grudge and have lived in Germany for 9 years or so, I find most Germans are nice people. But know that I live in Cebu the Philippines I find it hard to find a good American and most think they belong to the master race. They go around calling Filipino's monkeys (straight out of the trees) they have sex with women that are far more educated than they are etc, etc, etc. As most are high school drop outs of whom have been a waste of space for most of their lives.

However I many German friends here of whom have better moral standards and behave as normal world citizens and tend to have educated opinions.

To be truthful I prefer Germans to Americans and I sure hate this Americanism based on the thoughts of Karl Marx.

  • 2 votes
#9.4 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:14 AM EDT
oldfogey

So do I.

  • 2 votes
#9.5 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:21 AM EDT
Reply
Yuriy Bilokonsky

They definitely learned from the failures and successes of the Nazis.

The trouble, I think, is knowing what's really going on. We know what's not going on. We're not helping these people. They're not asking us to stay. That's all obvious.

But where this is headed, I wonder if the snake himself knows.

  • 8 votes
Reply#10 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:59 AM EDT
oldfogey

George I missed you. Did you have to study? You should have come on over. Be good, buddy.

  • 5 votes
#10.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:14 AM EDT
Yuriy Bilokonsky

It's amazing how much time one can spend doing nothing. I'll be sure to stop by more often.

  • 5 votes
#10.2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:37 AM EDT
Yuriy Bilokonsky

I worry I miswrote that. What I mean is that I have no idea why I haven't been visiting, or where the time is going.

  • 4 votes
#10.3 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:25 PM EDT
Reply
backgammon

Germans plays a lot ;-)

  • 3 votes
Reply#11 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:15 AM EDT
oldfogey

I thought I might be going too far but "Am I a Good American?" didn't ring the same bell in the thread of conversations here and elsewhere. I hope and wish us all to be good, regardless of any other association.

  • 5 votes
#11.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:56 AM EDT
cartooncat

Maybe you should model yourself on Günther

  • 3 votes
#11.2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:24 PM EDT
oldfogey

Hey, I do look like Gunther in my hiking shorts. Maybe you have hit on something cartooncat.

  • 4 votes
#11.3 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:22 PM EDT
cartooncat

In that case... I think you need to update your Avatar! LOL

  • 3 votes
#11.4 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:58 PM EDT
oldfogey

Nope, I just didn't spend much time in the sun back then. BTW avatar picture is from 1997-8. I have changed a lot. ROFLMAO

  • 5 votes
#11.5 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:06 PM EDT
Reply
viator

great piece oldfogey!

  • 3 votes
Reply#12 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:51 AM EDT
oldfogey

Thanks, viator, I need all the help I can get.

  • 4 votes
#12.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:57 AM EDT
Reply
vicaxp

macromegalithical monster monopolies

Very well put, Jerry! Thanks for writing this!

  • 4 votes
Reply#13 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:35 AM EDT
oldfogey

vicaxp, sometimes saying syllables systematically soothes sensitive senses in some situations.

  • 4 votes
#13.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:39 PM EDT
vicaxp

A probable prose pertaining pertinently pursuant and perfectly, Jerry.

  • 3 votes
#13.2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:43 PM EDT
Reply
Celestina

Thank you, Old Fogey. Too many people are afraid to simply state what is happening and say "Look around!". But you're not, and that's what will always set you apart from the Good Germans (and possibly land you in Haliburtons camps...but at least you will have good company). ;)

  • 4 votes
Reply#14 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:58 PM EDT
oldfogey

Yeh, if I have you there with me. Myk and Ryan here last Monday, sure made me miss you, and George, and winsome, and Zaki and Indecent and all the rest. Love.

  • 3 votes
#14.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:14 PM EDT
Reply
tom

for all of those who didn't read to the very end of the article: i am not the Tom whose comments inspired the article :-)

(just thought i'd mention that)

great stuff Jerry.

  • 7 votes
Reply#15 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:45 PM EDT
oldfogey

No, tom, you are not that tom. But you are a good Tom. We all know and appreciate that.

  • 5 votes
#15.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:12 PM EDT
Reply
ShaunV

decided to make people have passports not required previously or that you cannot travel by air any where without more paperwork and interference by government than ever before?

I am glad you pointed that out.

People who don't travel outside the country seem to be unaware of this passport issue even in places like Canada and Mexico where they were previously not needed.

The changes are flying under the radar.

  • 6 votes
Reply#16 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:59 PM EDT
tom

i remember the 1st time i tried to get from Vancouver, BC back into Washington State.

the border cop was incredulous (seemingly offended) that i didn't have my passport and threatened to keep me from being allowed to return back to the US. i told him this was the 1st i had heard of this policy, and that they certainly didn't mention it when i was leaving the US, nor was there a sign anywhere.

this made him angry (why, i don't know) and i had to pull over and go inside the offices at the border to answer a bunch of questions before they'd let me pass across the border. they told me i could have forged my driver's license, stolen the car i was driving (it was a rental), etc. when i pointed out it was a bit of a catch-22 to get my passport, they told me it was "my problem".

it was ridiculous.

  • 10 votes
#16.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:07 PM EDT
Djehuty

Have you noticed that in the last 7 years everyone with a badge has gotten a special medal saying "@!$%#"? Ok that's not fair (at all) but there's a huge level of abuse of power beyond what used to be there.

  • 6 votes
#16.2 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:11 PM EDT
oldfogey

If you hear a commotion from the Mexico border this Winter it will be me raising cane with just my birth certificate and driver's license. There is no law..... just some bureaucratic fiddle faddle. (At least not last time I looked but then again, as someone said, a lot is happening beneath the radar.

  • 6 votes
#16.3 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:11 PM EDT
ShaunV

this made him angry (why, i don't know)

I find there is a lot of generalized anger in other countries against American civilians. It appears to be a common complaint among frequent travelers.

It does sound like a catch 22ish S.N.A.F.U.

  • 2 votes
#16.4 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:59 AM EDT
Reply
Pamela Drew

Oh, and bush and rove and all the rest have not interfered with the press. No, in fact they have tried to help the press by paying reporters to place the "right" information into stories

It's nice to see credit where credit is due, lol! So when is the next bid for office? I'm voting for you, even as GOP!!

  • 6 votes
Reply#17 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:06 PM EDT
oldfogey

Pamela, think I do better work by just raising hell. When I was running for office I couldn't cuss, or go for a drink or kiss the real babies. Now I can do what I please and still give em hell.

  • 8 votes
Reply#18 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:11 PM EDT
Pamela Drew

think I do better work by just raising hell.

Couldn't be easier for me to appreciate and understand, someone nees to go make some waves.

  • 4 votes
#18.1 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:46 AM EDT
Reply
Joshua Deacon

Good stuff.

  • 6 votes
Reply#19 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:12 PM EDT
oldfogey

Thank you, Joshua Deacon. Thanks for being here.

  • 6 votes
#19.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:14 PM EDT
Reply
Forest Browne

Thanks for writing an article worth reading oldfogey, makes us all look internally for what we are. Nationality doesn't help the problem as we search for an identity with the help of millions of our peers that happen to come from the same general area on the globe.

I certainly hope we're all worth more than such a casual search.....man where do you get all that energy from?

Forest

  • 6 votes
Reply#20 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:39 PM EDT
oldfogey

Forest Browne, where do I get the energy? You should know, I am sure you have had some of it coming your way. I get it from the Forest Brownes and the Pamelas and Aines and Myks and Marilyns and I get it from all of you. You keep me going. There are people worth fighting for and I will until I can no more. The people in my community, here on this side of the screen, those Coshoctonians with whom I have lived much of my life. My kids, her kids, our kids. All the people whose paths have crossed mine. You know the old saw about "I never knew a person I didn't like....well I feel like that most times. I am proud of the Newsvine community, it has given me a mission when I thought I had done it all. I am proud of each and every person who comes here to put their hearts and souls on the line. You people are keeping me on a high that keeps going up....14,000 feet up Pike's Peak is for pikers. We are going really high. Thanks for being here, Forest Browne.

  • 4 votes
#20.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:02 PM EDT
Reply
lauhal

You are the most important thing of all oldfogey. You are a good man.

  • 5 votes
Reply#21 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:32 PM EDT
oldfogey

lauhal........

  • 5 votes
#21.1 - Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:07 PM EDT
Reply
Aunk (The Cultural Health Guy)

Hetep and Respect Oldfogy, Thanks for reminding me we still have good Americans. It is good to know that there are those that have not been frightened into silence, hiding in the dark.

My answer is clear. We must get rid of the present administration as soon as possible. Through every legal means available. And then we must heal and renew ourselves. Thanks for being here, Tom Bombadil.

Amen!

Oldfog, you are starting to sound like Malcolm in your elderhood. By any means necessary (...by every legal means available...).

  • 7 votes
Reply#22 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:47 AM EDT
oldfogey

Aunk, I appreciate the comment. Like most whites I am basically ignorant of what Malcolm really was and is about. But any comparison to those who try to do their best is sufficient. I wonder, did Malcolm also mellow in later years? Not mellow, but find better ways to express what he had to say so that he was more widely accepted?

  • 6 votes
#22.1 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:31 AM EDT
Aunk (The Cultural Health Guy)

Hetep and Respect Oldfogy, Malcolm X did "mellow" with age, LOL.

I wonder, did Malcolm also mellow in later years?

Malcolm is a remarkable example of an individual who made progress in curing his Cultural Poisoning and then went on to help reduce Cultural Poisoning in the world. Naturally, he did not call it that, as Cultural Health language was not available to him at the time. however, he was very effective at improving Cultural Health especially in his community.

In his later years, he met and interacted with Whites overseas on an equal footing and this profoundly modified his thinking about the behavior of some of the members of your ethnic group. After he was disconnected from the Nation of Islam, he started to speak for himself, instead of on behalf of his teacher and a cleared picture of the man emerged, his speech at Oxford is a good example.

Yes, like most of us, he was less strident in his later years and more globally focused.

  • 6 votes
#22.2 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:17 AM EDT
Reply
Partisan Hack

OldFogey,

Thanks, these are questions that all Americans must ask themselves. Real patriotism is the willingness to ask questions that may be dangerous to ask at times.

  • 5 votes
Reply#23 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:25 AM EDT
oldfogey

Partisan Hack, it may be more dangerous to have never asked them.

  • 1 vote
#23.1 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:07 AM EDT
Reply
oldfogey

Partisan Hack, so true. I asked myself enough times that I quit being partisan. People, not parties, made our country great. Parties are part of the present problems.

  • 3 votes
Reply#24 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:32 AM EDT
I SPY

At the end of WW2 Hitler gathered together all the important industrialists and corporate heads and gave them one last assignment. To switch sides. This requires another post of it's own but to name just one you may be familiar with, the German scientist Prof. Wernher von Braun,

"He saw everything that went on every day. When they walked
along the corridors, they saw the prisoners' drudgery, their
exhausting work and their ordeal. During his frequent attendance in
Dora, Prof. Wernher von Braun never once protested against this
cruelty and brutality.

and

On a little area beside the clinic shack you could see
piles of prisoners every day who had not survived the workload and
had been tortured to death by the vindictive guards. [...] But
Prof. Wernher von Braun just walked past them, so close that he
almost touched the bodies.

On August 15 1944, von Braun wrote a letter (Ref 2) to Albin
Sawatzki, manager of the V-2 production, admitting that he
personally picked labor slaves from the Buchenwald concentration camp, who, he
admitted 25 years later in an interview, had been in a
"pitiful shape".

You are correct to oppose what is happening in the US executive branch at the moment Old Fogey. I am sure I heard somewhere that Americans fought a war to stop some King from from forcing them to do the things that Mr Bush is now doing to them and in the name of their country and principles :)

America has always led by example and now that is what is happening. Would Roosevelt have blurted out, "Im the Decider" or the "Commander Guy."

When we look at the recent events in Pakistan and the appointing of Mushareff by the supreme court judges what should a US president say about such things. Maybe something like this;
The White House has cautiously welcomed the decision however , President Bush said it was a sad day when the supreme court of a country needed to declare the winner in an election widely veiwed as a perversion of participatory democracy, Especially one that resulted in the election of a widely disliked God fearing puppet of his countries religious right.

  • 6 votes
Reply#25 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:23 AM EDT
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